Episode 002: Importance of Identity and Value

00:00:00:25 - 00:00:23:11
Mike McTaggart
Welcome to the We're Not Robots Podcast. I'm your host, Mike MacTaggart. Today, as we continue to focus on the people behind successful digital transformations around the world and across industries., we'll be chatting with Paul McKeithen of Coperion, a world leader in manufacturing headquartered in Germany and founded in 1879. Paul is one of those super smart, yet humble guys that says the clock on his VCR is still blinking 12:00 --

00:00:23:22 - 00:01:02:02
Mike McTaggart
Yet he's also been seen on stage at Microsoft's Ignite conference talking about the industrial Internet of Things. Let's see what advice Paul has for your digital transformation journey. Thanks for joining us today. For our listeners, why don't you give us just a little bit of introduction. Tell us a bit about yourself and maybe even a little of the back story of your digital journey kind of through to where you are today.

00:01:03:05 - 00:01:23:25
Paul McKeithan
Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. You know, you and I have known each other for a while and you've probably heard this old joke. But, you know, I like to say that my VCR still flashes 12:00, so I'm not sure I'm on a digital journey, as most would think. But interesting enough. A little bit of background about ourselves.

00:01:24:08 - 00:01:48:19
Paul McKeithan
I am a little bit technical. I have a mechanical engineering degree. And I spent most of my career in the food equipment manufacturing space. Some of that started focusing on the thermal processing side of things where we had processed something like breakfast cereals or snack foods or maybe even pet food or some industrial products like synthetic rubber and things of that nature.

00:01:49:19 - 00:02:18:20
Paul McKeithan
That led me quickly into some business development around those types of products and also product management and then on into sales and leadership and things of that nature. I guess I really started down this concept of digitalization at one point. Like, like many in the last few years, you get a group of people sitting around the room and say, How do we make our products smart?

00:02:19:08 - 00:02:35:07
Paul McKeithan
And we start throwing out terms like IoT and Industry 4.0. And I was the guy in the back of the room Googling those terms to figure out what was being said. While there's a few millennials in the room and going, I know exactly what they're talking about. My TV orders, I mean, my refrigerator orders my milk for me.

00:02:36:14 - 00:02:57:00
Paul McKeithan
And so I had a lot to catch up on. But what I was bringing to the table was a strong experience of the marketplace and the space that I played and what was needed and the value. And I started questioning, where is the value for our customers and where's the value for us as a vendor or a manufacturer of equipment in that space?

00:02:58:02 - 00:03:19:24
Paul McKeithan
And which fell into about four or five years of leading a digital services journey. And that's really where I started trying to understand where that value is. While I played in the world of sensors and technology and things of that nature. So that's a little bit my background in the digital space.

00:03:20:15 - 00:03:46:00
Mike McTaggart
But also something you've had a variety of roles and I love that you're not natively a digital or tech guy like, people that know me like you know me. I'm the geek, born a geek. And, you know, it's, it's refreshing to have sort of the non geek conversation around some of this technology because I mean the whole point of this podcast is that the technology is not the answer.

00:03:47:00 - 00:04:17:06
Mike McTaggart
You know, so you along those lines, one of the things that I just heard you say, you know, you said the word value like four times. And you there's there's sort of this new buzzword going around now called speed to value, you know, and people are using it in different ways. But, you know, a lot of times it's, you know, in the software world, it's how fast can we deliver a feature that provides value to the customer, so speed to delivering value to the customer when coaching internal sort of your teams to be higher performance.

00:04:17:06 - 00:04:39:07
Mike McTaggart
It's, you know part of that. How am I contributing value to this project and how fast can I, you know, you know, can I get the chief speed to value even inside an organization? But there's still this nebulous in value itself as sort of a nebulous construct, right? It's kind of like, you know, agile and digital and these other big words that have really fuzzy meanings.

00:04:40:19 - 00:04:47:25
Mike McTaggart
How did you go about defining value? How do you figure out what is valuable?

00:04:47:26 - 00:05:11:03
Paul McKeithan
Well, that's a really good question. I think one thing to add some context to this conversation is, you know, I'm in this manufacturing space, which is a very much an industrial space. And if you if you look at that historically, these processes, let's say, like making breakfast cereal or making this food that's so important to feed the world.

00:05:11:03 - 00:05:32:12
Paul McKeithan
Right. And breakfast cereal was just an example that jumped in my mind. But they're very traditional. I mean, these these types of things started in somebody's kitchen somewhere, right? You know, and there's there's a lot of importance there. How do we do this in a better way? A more sustainable way? And all these terms and areas like that.

00:05:32:24 - 00:05:59:11
Paul McKeithan
And so the question is, how does having a digital connection to these very traditional processes add value? And so value to us was what was really defined by the customer. And the first way we found it was by making a lot of mistakes and doing it the wrong way. And you started off their comment was, it's not about the technology.

00:05:59:17 - 00:06:18:21
Paul McKeithan
One of the things I learned real quick was just as a catch phrase “It’s not about the sensors.” Right. There's I think there's a lot of cool technology that needs to be there. And that's not the point of what I'm saying. The point is that maybe it shouldn't lead the conversation. I think we've got to have the technology, we've got to have the sensors.

00:06:18:21 - 00:06:31:26
Paul McKeithan
We've got to understand how to connect with with our customers or whoever we're working with. But maybe that doesn't lead the conversation. I think the conversation needs to be led by exploring how to find value and what that looks like.

00:06:32:08 - 00:06:47:06
Mike McTaggart
The things I heard you say just now with having conversations with the customer around what they value. Right, which is fantastic, but that's not always an easy conversation. So how did you go about that? Just tell me tell me more about what those conversations were like.

00:06:47:06 - 00:07:17:08
Paul McKeithan
The conversations were not different than they had always been. Right. So that's one of the things we had to realize. This is is who we were to our customers. Right. And I think a lot of times we go about this this we use the term digital transformation in a way that is talking about our own behavior. But I think the value you've got to look into what digital transformation means to the relationship that you have with your customers.

00:07:17:09 - 00:07:40:22
Paul McKeithan
You know, I used to I like to say it's a digital relationship because yeah, you can look at it one side and say, how do I get my processes more digital or more accurate? But I think the real power is when you connect with the customer and you use the data and the digital piece to change the relationship.

00:07:41:17 - 00:08:04:01
Paul McKeithan
So the first thing you need to do is find out who you were in that relationship. It's almost like a marriage is like, what do you bring to the table and why do you bring your what do you bring on your side of the relationship? And once you create that strong identity for us, for example, we manufactured equipment to serve that space.

00:08:04:01 - 00:08:30:02
Paul McKeithan
And one of the unique value propositions that we would bring would be process knowledge in this particular case. Right. So the questions to the customers were based around the things we already knew. Like, what's that process? Knowledge, you know, where are you missing that customer? How can our process knowledge fill that gap? How can we help you make your decisions, your products better, whatever it may be?

00:08:30:03 - 00:08:47:24
Paul McKeithan
How do we bring more of what we already bring to you? Right. So how do we strengthen this relationship? And then in that case, the digital connectivity part just becomes the tool to help you deliver the value that you already knew how to deliver.

00:08:48:20 - 00:09:11:17
Mike McTaggart
So what I'm hearing is that the conversation with the customer is, you know, it's it's a lot like you've always had. So it shouldn't be an intimidating thing, but it's important to figure out who you are to that customer because that's a key kind of part of, you know, when we think about digital transformation, we get caught up in the change part of it because that's the hard part.

00:09:11:26 - 00:09:47:05
Mike McTaggart
But we're not saying we need to change who we are. In fact, your customer probably doesn't want you to change who you are, but how you deliver value, how you deliver or meet the expectations of your customer. That could very much change as the relationship matures or evolves over time or learns to leverage these new tools. It's kind of like, you know, if I'm, you know, if I'm writing a letter versus sending an email, it doesn't change who I am, but it very much changes how I'm able to interact with the recipient.

00:09:47:08 - 00:10:11:26
Mike McTaggart
And if that's a two way communication, as it should be, it also shortens the cycle time. You know, we're not waiting weeks to get the return letter and thus, you know, respond again. These cycles can happen very, very quickly. Now, that kind of brings me to this idea of this, you know, kind of you know, I think I mentioned speed to value earlier.

00:10:11:26 - 00:10:32:09
Mike McTaggart
I feel like that's a bit of a challenge. And, you know, I don't know, is that part of a change of who I am or just a change in the way I need to work? Because now there's an expectation to respond more quickly. So I guess as the relationship change, the question is, did the expectations in that relationship change?

00:10:33:17 - 00:10:55:14
Paul McKeithan
You know, I mean, I think so. I think so. I think as any relationship matures, you if we take me and my wife, as our relationships have grown, of course, expectation changes, right? I hope my wife expects more out of me today than she did when she dated me as a in college.

00:10:55:14 - 00:10:56:05
Mike McTaggart
And then.

00:10:56:19 - 00:11:25:17
Paul McKeithan
Yeah, absolutely saying I think what's interesting, you know, in the roles that I've had, I've had a chance to also be a part of and speak at different conferences and have a chance to look into the domain, look into this space with a lot of different companies. And the one common thread that I always saw was a slow down to the value because because the natural tendency is to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

00:11:25:17 - 00:11:54:05
Paul McKeithan
Or you lose that identity path, right? If you take a company that's that's not in the technology space. Right. But and right now, right now, that's a lot more companies than you think. Right. As their inherit base soul is not a technology company, but yet they see that technology and this digital conversation, they see there's something there and everybody gets excited about it.

00:11:54:05 - 00:12:20:16
Paul McKeithan
And let's let's try to find out what the value is in this. And so there's a lot of resources, a lot of focus into that space, but it gets a little too complicated because they're thinking, well, I can't talk to our customers about this because I just don't even have those people on staff who can can talk about connectivity or the or any other technical term that you want to, that you could probably do better than me.

00:12:20:17 - 00:12:51:18
Paul McKeithan
Mike But the DMZ, your firewall or protection or so on and so forth, right? So they get really scared of this, right? And that and it slows them down. Right. And it goes back to what I was saying earlier is that I found a way to that speed of value from my point of view is, all right, maybe I have a way to give my customers more or deeper value that I used to give them because I have this new tool now.

00:12:51:18 - 00:13:19:00
Paul McKeithan
How do I deliver that? And it's typically through change behaviors, right? I have more capability. You know, now I work a full time job and I can my wife and I can buy a house. So now I need about furnitures and curtains and things like this, you know, in the relationship builds and expands, but I think you're setting the basis of it to it's it's really about behavioral change.

00:13:19:00 - 00:13:42:16
Paul McKeithan
And if I get down to it, it's about the people in the relationship, right? The technology is this prompt that I used to say, imagine you got it most any business. Right. And if if you could have a proactive customer service, it would be like the Holy Grail, like if you knew what was happening. And so you take a manufacturing space.

00:13:42:16 - 00:14:12:13
Paul McKeithan
I used to explain it as that you could only you can only help them the times that you could see them, right? When you go to visit or they visit you or they call you or you call them. Right now, you you have an opportunity to look behind the curtain of your customer and take a walk in their shoes and see their problems when they see their problems and be positioned to behave differently because of it.

00:14:13:02 - 00:14:46:27
Paul McKeithan
And I think that's the real change. And I think that's really real speech of value. If you can create those behaviors of adaptation, right? If you can adapt to an a business environment that looks like that, that's changing so quickly and do something with it. Now, I would simply before I turn it over, the one thing that I left out and I left out on purpose is that I don't we're not waiting for some machine learning thing or some advanced air stuff.

00:14:46:27 - 00:15:05:21
Paul McKeithan
That's great. And that could come in the future. I think most people miss the fact that they have people that bring value and if they connect those people in a traditional way to those customers, but just do it faster because they can see behind the curtains. I think that's enough. I think that's enough. The start.

00:15:06:22 - 00:15:24:22
Mike McTaggart
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I mean, gosh, how many times we've seen there's a whole lot of value that can be produced when you put together some smart people and some spreadsheets, you know, I mean, you know, the data is there. The ability to process it is is there. And oftentimes it's only a few steps to really getting some meaningful insights.

00:15:26:05 - 00:15:50:05
Mike McTaggart
I love the way you describe the the relation ship, you know, using an analogy that makes it more personal, you know, it makes it more real. I think. I think about my relations. Certainly I expect more of myself. The today than when my wife and I were dating so many, many, many years ago. But also, you know, think about I mean, I think our kids are, you know, it's similar in age as well.

00:15:50:05 - 00:16:08:09
Mike McTaggart
And I think about the responsibilities and the way that relationship has matured and our expectations have changed. And, you know, maybe this is something you can relate to. It comes to my mind, you know, but the conversation around, you know, you know, I'm tired of having to ask you to do X. I just want you to do that.

00:16:08:13 - 00:16:29:24
Mike McTaggart
You know, I expect you to do it on your own. And to me, that seems very similar to, you know, the relationship of okay, I expect the equipment you sold me to do X and if it's unable to do that, I expect you to do it to fix it on your own. Not for me to have to come to you and say, Hey, your equipment is down or it's producing.

00:16:30:03 - 00:16:39:01
Mike McTaggart
You know, it's showing this error or has this, you know, problem to me that sounds very similar, is that am I hearing that right?

00:16:39:27 - 00:17:07:03
Paul McKeithan
Yeah, that's right. But the problem is, I think a lot of businesses have run so long and a very comfortable business model that that's that's a very foreign way that businesses work. I mean, where businesses get ingrained in their processes and the process is are not flexible enough to adapt with a very more intimate expectations from their customer.

00:17:07:26 - 00:17:39:24
Paul McKeithan
Right. That's that's a customer expecting something that would have to stem from knowledge from behind their walls, not from knowledge inside of your company's walls. Right. And so we have to be able to create a a business model that's more resilient, you know, and to those different expectations as they grow. And that's that's a culture change, you know, a culture change, to me is kind of like a diet.

00:17:40:02 - 00:18:05:20
Paul McKeithan
You know, it's it's not a it is not an easy to salad once or twice and and shed those pounds and then you're done. It's a lifestyle change, right. And that takes that takes time. It takes commitment and it just takes a it takes the the the idea that you're just going to do it different and you're going to do it different every time.

00:18:06:06 - 00:18:14:24
Paul McKeithan
And that's and that's something I think that businesses are I think businesses are struggling with that more than they are the technology.

00:18:16:07 - 00:18:51:00
Mike McTaggart
But it's another great analogy. And I tell you, it hits home, you know, because I know I lost some weight recently and started to put it back on. I like, you know, how hard that change is, is very real, you know, right now and how easy it is to kind of slip back in the old ways. You know, it's like, okay, I, you know, I can just have this cake like just today because it's a special occasion, you know, and then you all of a sudden I'm back in the pattern of, you know, my old diet or, you know, I'm stringing together, you know, a week of cheat days.

00:18:51:00 - 00:19:24:07
Mike McTaggart
You know, that change is really hard and it's very much a a human centric, A people centric thing. How do you how do you approach that? You sort of being a driver of that change when it's when it's such a people thing, you know, like what? Or are there any sort of tactical things or ways to think about, you know, communicating that change so that it's more effective than just, hey, guys, we're doing this?

00:19:25:16 - 00:19:37:28
Paul McKeithan
Yeah, I think I think one word is flexibility. And I can go back to my my marriage analogy. Right. I don't believe there's a process you can write in place and keep a marriage together, right? Yeah.

00:19:37:28 - 00:19:41:01
Mike McTaggart
You've got to change management policy for for for marriage.

00:19:41:01 - 00:20:00:28
Paul McKeithan
Oh. Oh, my goodness. No, you can't do that. You can't. And we try. We laugh, but we try. I mean, how many times we set aside to says no, well, we're going to get this right. I mean, dinner is going to be different now. We're going to have Monday night's going to be spaghetti. Tuesday night isn't going to be chicken Wednesday night.

00:20:00:28 - 00:20:34:16
Paul McKeithan
It's going to be leftover spaghetti. You know, we try to map that out and inevitably that falls apart after two or three weeks if if it last that long because somebody doesn't want that that night. Right. And so, yes, our customers in the situations the same way that they could use one word is flexibility. So as a manager, if you want to create an adaptive type business model, you can't you cannot just run by the spreadsheet and the numbers if you control your business and your people every single week by saying, okay, dear engineers, how many hours have you had?

00:20:34:21 - 00:20:57:18
Paul McKeithan
How many hours or billable did you are, you know, 99.9% of that billable hours. Where did you put that project to? And at the same time, expect that engineer to be able to get on a call because his cell phone ding that a customer was having a problem and just be there to understand what that problem was and and and help walk that customer through a solution.

00:20:58:19 - 00:21:13:03
Paul McKeithan
And that customer's appetite was different. He just wanted a different meal that day. We've got to program in some sense of flexibility to how our people respond to this new information we get from our customers.

00:21:14:25 - 00:21:44:13
Mike McTaggart
You know, it's amazing to me, you know, what I just heard is the almost exactly like a conversation I had recently in the software development world where we're struggling to. You're going to help an organization move from waterfall kind of mindset and mentality and methods to being more agile. You know, they, they find themselves where, you know, they want a project plan up front with everything to find and a fixed sort of cost allocation around that deliverable.

00:21:44:21 - 00:22:08:08
Mike McTaggart
So we're going to take these hundred steps in these 100 days and deliver X at the end of it for this cost. But then they also want to respond to all of the changes that come in, which inherently changes those 100 steps and even the shape or form of that X at the end of the hundred days. And you can't do both.

00:22:08:08 - 00:22:37:03
Mike McTaggart
You know, you're caught in this world between being rigid and being flexible and trying to deliver equality at the same time. And it's it's impossible. You it's you can't be both and expect the same outcome because they produce different outcomes. One by its nature means the outcomes are going to vary at the end because we've adapted through the through the process itself.

00:22:37:03 - 00:23:00:18
Mike McTaggart
We responded to the customer's demands. And so if we respond to the customer's ask for a change, then we're changing that initial design that we promised and all the assumptions and promises around it have to be you have to adapt as well. And so it's funny, I hear these, you know, it's it's such a the conversation we're used to having in the software world.

00:23:00:18 - 00:23:25:17
Mike McTaggart
But you just described it very much from a a manufacturing point of view, which I love to see. I love to see where all of these principles apply. And it's not just, you know, a bunch of developers coming up with these crazy ideas. It really does make a difference in the rest of, you know, the productive, you know, corporate world.

00:23:25:17 - 00:23:49:17
Mike McTaggart
One thing and I didn't really anticipate going there, but, you know, we touched on this notion of flexibility and adaptability. So this is something that's been sort of my soapbox recently, especially in the last couple of years, is this idea of resiliency as kind of adaptive adaptability with a purpose, you know, like, you know, we're not just adapting for sake of adapting.

00:23:49:17 - 00:24:14:12
Mike McTaggart
You're going whichever direction the wind blows, you know, but being resilient and in, you know, achieving an objective regardless of which whichever direction the wind blows. What are your thoughts on that? Do you feel like teams are more resilient today than they were, say, three years ago? pre-COVID, or are we still struggling with this idea?

00:24:15:09 - 00:24:46:20
Paul McKeithan
I mean, I think we're still struggling with it. And here's here's an example I would use. I think most people, if you were to ask, asked them, is culture important to your business? I think they were mostly yes. And maybe more people say yes really quickly to that than they did 20 years ago. Right. And I think we can see that we talk about diversity and inclusion and and culture and all these things and and how much it means.

00:24:46:20 - 00:25:08:06
Paul McKeithan
Right. And we we've seen some great slogans and quotes from that space as well. Right. But there's the clash, though, because it's an intangible conversation. Right? So when it comes time to get budget for next year and you submit budgets and you have to develop, it's difficult to develop a business plan based on culture, but we all know it brings value.

00:25:08:12 - 00:25:27:28
Paul McKeithan
We all know it's there, right? So I think I think we're still missing the resiliency now of leaders saying, yes, I want to create a culture where there's more fun at work and I want to create a culture that there's honesty and transparency. And I want to create a culture of trust and work life balance and and all these buzzwords.

00:25:27:28 - 00:26:05:13
Paul McKeithan
Right. And they're buzzwords only because we don't put meaning behind them. Because at the end of the day, that's nice. But I can't give you money to support those programs because, you know, it's not a tangible business plan. And I think this is where it really ties up and it gets in the way of that. If our full circle speed of value when it comes to technology is that we can get money put aside for developing a new sensor and improving this little technology piece and this this this setup that we have.

00:26:05:27 - 00:26:33:21
Paul McKeithan
Right. But that's not the way to go about it. We get to connect with our customers. I think the way to go about it is creating this culture, creating this relationship with our customers on a more intimate level and behave in that way. I think that's where it all falls apart. Unless you have a leader with that change mentality, mindset and somebody who's resilient to be able to create a flexible environment to handle that.

00:26:33:21 - 00:26:53:16
Mike McTaggart
Do you think there's an appetite, you know, given what we've been through with COVID and, you know, I mean, I know that I'm still working with organizations that are still struggling with back to office and working remote and hybrid and and so on. Is there an appetite in the boardroom.

00:26:54:03 - 00:26:54:27
Paul McKeithan
For.

00:26:55:13 - 00:27:21:12
Mike McTaggart
Saying, as a leader, hey, this culture piece is part of building a resilient organization? If we give our employees or create the processes and tools that make the employees able to deliver value regardless of circumstance, we will have a more resilient organization. And here's the rely on that. Do you think boards are ready to have that conversation?

00:27:22:02 - 00:27:43:26
Paul McKeithan
Well well, Mike, there's two things here. First of all, I think I'm starting to get hungry now because we're talking about appetite. We've talked about spaghetti, dinner. We threw out a diet piece in there. But I believe there is an appetite developing. I think it is different than even just five years ago. I think COVID could probably help us in that regard.

00:27:44:07 - 00:28:13:16
Paul McKeithan
Just the fact that you and I are doing this recording online together right now versus face to face. And really not because we couldn't I mean, we could have we could have gotten a car and and went and had lunch together and did that. But it's I think we've started changing how we can we can have these types of relationships and and even enrich them and so that's working its way through how we behave.

00:28:13:24 - 00:28:34:01
Paul McKeithan
And I believe there is an appetite to begin to invest, if you will, and to culture topics. And I'm convinced that's what it's going to have to take to to to find the value that your organization can bring to the customers in that regard, especially in a space about a live event.

00:28:35:13 - 00:28:56:21
Mike McTaggart
All right. I want to take it too much for your time today, but I have to ask this question. What advice would you give to a leader in an organization that that is listening today and agrees that, okay, I need to start moving the needle, I need to make these changes inside my team, my organization, whatever size or scope they have.

00:28:56:21 - 00:29:15:22
Mike McTaggart
But what advice would you give, you know, reflecting back on your own kind of learnings and and such over the last, you know, X number of years? We've kind of all been on this journey together in terms of how they start out trying to to make change.

00:29:15:22 - 00:29:39:10
Paul McKeithan
I mean, I think the very first step and the very base of the advice would be to determine your identity and be strong about that, who you are. I mean, this we used to be we probably did that. Let's say a business was first created. You sit down, you write a business plan and you say, what value am I going to bring?

00:29:39:10 - 00:30:09:16
Paul McKeithan
What's my unique what's my unique selling point? What's all these things? And then we get into business and we kind of forget that, right? And so renew that. So that you're strong in it in terms of saying how how do I deliver value to my customers? Why do my customers actually spend their money with me? Right. And then and I'm not saying you can't expand on that and grow to go down different avenues and stuff like that.

00:30:09:16 - 00:30:38:14
Paul McKeithan
But that's your core identity. I think you need to focus on what strengthens that and be and be strongly tied to that identity. That would be my number one piece of advice because from there you can you have an anchor point. After you have that anchor point, everything else I talk about is flexibility, being able to adapt to changing environments, especially now that we are more intimate with our customers.

00:30:38:27 - 00:31:00:17
Paul McKeithan
We have a view of their data, we have a view of their operation, we have a view of their their struggles. And, you know, that customer is standing there with a coffee cup in hand in the morning looking at what problems are facing him the day and now digitally you can stand beside him. And we never had that level of intimacy before.

00:31:01:05 - 00:31:22:17
Paul McKeithan
The question is just how will you set your business up an organization to be able to respond with customers problems? When we spent years and years only focused on how to deal with our problems, right. And so there's the mindset shift is how do we create a very flexible organization? And I think, you know, I always look at it like a piece of seaweed.

00:31:22:28 - 00:31:34:25
Paul McKeithan
It's moving all around the floor, but it's still anchored. Right? It still has the anchor to who you are and what you want to do. And you're going to solve your customers problems from that point.

00:31:35:13 - 00:32:00:16
Mike McTaggart
Awesome, awesome advice. I love that. I absolutely love that. And now I'm actually getting a little hungry. Also, I might do a little low carb like cucumber wraps. Sushi is kind of what I'm now starting to gravitate towards, actually. But I tell you what, this has been a fantastic time and I love chatting with you. I can't wait till we get a chance to grab lunch or a coffee or something again soon.

00:32:01:05 - 00:32:11:13
Mike McTaggart
And hopefully I can really be into to doing another episode in the near future because I think we've still got a lot to talk about, but thank you so much for spending this time with us today and I hope you have a great week.

00:32:12:14 - 00:32:52:14
Paul McKeithan
Absolutely Mike, thank you it’s a pleasure as always.